How to improve attendances?

[b4life]

As per the suggestion in the Ebbsfleet thread, I've created a new thread entirely to discuss the state of attendances at the Hive.
Firstly a few stats. Current home average for this season - 1888
For the last 10 seasons have been 2050, 1566, N/A Covid, 1224 (partial Covid), 1338, 2113 (FL), 2211 (FL), 2357 (FL), 1960, 1705 (These are totals not just home fans)
Also, let's get one myth out of the way. Before Covid I did an analysis of home attendances Hive v Underhill. I concluded that, at most, we lost 10-15% of of our supporter base moving to the Hive. However, we've also had some of of our highest crowds of the last 40 years, at the Hive. On the face of it, it doesn't look too bad. From a low point of the first season back in the National League (excluding Covid hit years), attendances have increased 50%. However, when you look back our last league winning season of 2014/15, our average of 1960 got us 6th place on the highest attendances, last season our average of 2025 only got us 17th, beaten by the likes of Bromley 2,585, Torquay United 2,422 Eastleigh 2,372 FC Halifax Town 2,192 Maidstone United 2,142 Altrincham 2,115 and Aldershot Town 2052. In the years we were in the league before 2014, we only averaged around 2100, the exception being our first season back in the league in 2005/6 where we averaged 2576.
Another Myth. Our 'on the day prices' are too much. Unless you compare them to Weirdstone or Boringwood (which I don't think is a fair comparison), I do not think this is the case. Just look at Dagenham or the shite facilities at Bromley. As a supporters association, we do believe there are some weaknesses in the pricing structure but not enough to make a major difference.
I think the questions that need to be answered are
In the last 20 years, we've not been well supported wherever we've been, whatever league we're in, is there actually a problem at all?
Has the club done enough to promote the club locally and build up a more local fan base? Before Covid, I would say no they haven't but after Covid, there has been a change. However it takes a long time to take effect, have we seen any impact yet?
Is there anything more the club or supporters can do. Our owner believes that short term promotions rarely work. Is this because they just don't work, or have they not been promoted and targeted properly? What would we do as supporters?
Are Barnet FC fans just fickle, they turn up for the big games but either support another club or just can't be bothered?
Over to you (puts on hard hat and flak jacket!)

[WhetstoneBee]

I’ve often tried to get people to come to games, or attend more if they’re occasional visitors, and the main barrier is the £22 cost. Why is the experience of me and other supporters a “myth”? And why is a comparison with clubs in the same league and same local area as us an invalid comparison? You can mock the facilities at Bromley but there’s often a better atmosphere there than at the Hive and their turnstiles and scoreboard actually work, which is more than could be said for Barnet yesterday. If people want to just sit in nice seats with a perfect view then there are plenty of nearby clubs offering that plus better football than our level. People are attracted to clubs like ours by the whole experience - the fun and the atmosphere and the friendliness of non-league - and The Hive currently offers very little of any of that. You can knock Dagenham, Bromley etc. but there’s a reason why friends I’ve taken to away games at those places have enjoyed it more than coming to The Hive - and it’s the same reason those clubs are seeing their attendances increase while we aren’t.

[thebeekeeper]

As per the suggestion in the Ebbsfleet thread, I've created a new thread entirely to discuss the state of attendances at the Hive.
Firstly a few stats. Current home average for this season - 1888
For the last 10 seasons have been 2050, 1566, N/A Covid, 1224 (partial Covid), 1338, 2113 (FL), 2211 (FL), 2357 (FL), 1960, 1705 (These are totals not just home fans)
Also, let's get one myth out of the way. Before Covid I did an analysis of home attendances Hive v Underhill. I concluded that, at most, we lost 10-15% of of our supporter base moving to the Hive. However, we've also had some of of our highest crowds of the last 40 years, at the Hive. On the face of it, it doesn't look too bad. From a low point of the first season back in the National League (excluding Covid hit years), attendances have increased 50%. However, when you look back our last league winning season of 2014/15, our average of 1960 got us 6th place on the highest attendances, last season our average of 2025 only got us 17th, beaten by the likes of Bromley 2,585, Torquay United 2,422 Eastleigh 2,372 FC Halifax Town 2,192 Maidstone United 2,142 Altrincham 2,115 and Aldershot Town 2052. In the years we were in the league before 2014, we only averaged around 2100, the exception being our first season back in the league in 2005/6 where we averaged 2576.
Another Myth. Our 'on the day prices' are too much. Unless you compare them to Weirdstone or Boringwood (which I don't think is a fair comparison), I do not think this is the case. Just look at Dagenham or the shite facilities at Bromley. As a supporters association, we do believe there are some weaknesses in the pricing structure but not enough to make a major difference.
I think the questions that need to be answered are
In the last 20 years, we've not been well supported wherever we've been, whatever league we're in, is there actually a problem at all?
Has the club done enough to promote the club locally and build up a more local fan base? Before Covid, I would say no they haven't but after Covid, there has been a change. However it takes a long time to take effect, have we seen any impact yet?
Is there anything more the club or supporters can do. Our owner believes that short term promotions rarely work. Is this because they just don't work, or have they not been promoted and targeted properly? What would we do as supporters?
Are Barnet FC fans just fickle, they turn up for the big games but either support another club or just can't be bothered?
Over to you (puts on hard hat and flak jacket!)

I think the first thing I'd say is that we need to be basing any analysis off home attendances, rather than overall crowds, because they can fluctuate significantly depending on the number of 'bigger' clubs in our division at any one time. There's a useful list of those from 2003/04 onwards here:

https://www.downhillsecondhalf.co.uk/Fo ... ances.aspx

If you don't mind me asking Mark, what was the methodology for your assessment of home attendances at The Hive vs Underhill? I've mentioned this before, but I think if you compare 'like for like' seasons (title wins, play-off campaigns, relegation battles etc, rather than just X number of seasons before we left Underhill) then the decline is more stark than 10-15%.

Regardless, it's possibly a moot point, because 10-15% is still a significant amount - it would take us past the 2000 mark for average home crowds this season, which I think would be an acceptable number.

As you rightly say, the bar has been raised in recent years. Lower league football is more popular than ever, but for some reason we've been unable to capitalise on that. There are plenty of reasons for that, but we probably don't want to go over old ground, and need to get into a 'don't bring me problems, bring me solutions' mindset!

With that in mind, here are some of the issues that I think potentially have solutions...

- The Hive, to be brutally honest, isn't a great place to watch football (in my opinion, of course!) It completely lacks the 'lower league feel' and community hub quality that has seen so many other non-league clubs increase their gates. A friend of mine came along and said it had the vibe of Stansted airport!

That's a tricky thing to resolve, but I think the 'Barnet-ification' of The Legends' Stand bar would help, as would having a terrace somewhere in the ground. It's probably something that might improve over time too, when the stadium is more complete and there's less 'tinkering'.

- I feel like we've completely lost any connection to the High Barnet area. The local community there was the lifeblood of the club at one stage, but we've gradually stopped keeping people engaged - getting rid of the shuttle bus for example. That seems mad to me, it's still Barnet Football Club, surely we need to try and rebuild that connection with Barnet itself. That could, in the longer term, add to the number of people who regularly attend. I'm not sure exactly how, but would be interested to hear any ideas.

- I know what you're saying about ticket prices Mark, but I still think we desperately need a lower cost entry level price. Dagenham is expensive, but you can still stand on the terrace for £17 as an adult. I also think we're in a slightly different position to other clubs. The somewhat botched transition from Underhill to The Hive means were almost starting afresh, in terms of building a new, local fanbase. That probably requires innovative solutions - perhaps something akin to the old North Terrace offering, where people can get a flavour of what going to Barnet is like, for a lower cost.

- Maybe most importantly of all, we've never run a joined up marketing campaign in the whole time I've supported the club. Hiring a marketing expect, and crucially, actually giving them some budget could work wonders IMO.

[markobee]

Good to see a separate thread for this.
Minor point perhaps - but perhaps someone can answer the question (or is it another 'myth'?) as to whether season ticket holders are included in a match's attendance whether or not they attend?
In recent years, my personal circumstances have meant that I haven't been able to get to very many matches. However, I have bought season tickets regardless - partly in order to show solidarity with my team, partly to keep TK's coffers topped up, and partly to be sure of a seat for the few games that I do manage to get to. Btw, if my sporadic attendance makes me a 'fickle fan just turning up for big games', then I plead guilty.
As regards past attendances:- the home attendance (3733) for our play-off match versus Boreham Wood was under-reported at the time by a large amount, although I see it is now showing correctly on the BFC website's match report. If this is affecting your stats, then you may wish to correct that. (Some people here thought that even the right number, 3733, was a poor turn-out. I attended that game, and I thought it was a good crowd. Clearly, we don't all have the same expectations or perceptions.)
More generally, I think the Club hasn't been very clever at marketing itself, now for several years. That said, the best marketing tool is an attractive and successful team - which we now seem to have. Long may this continue.
Larger crowds elsewhere in the National League (eg the 8451 for Monday's match between Chesterfield and Hartlepool) indicate that these clubs simply have much bigger followings than we do. Nothing that Dean and the boys do, will ever change that. That said, I'd obviously prefer to see our crowds at the 3000 mark, rather than 1800. Barry Fry took our (Underhill) crowds from below 1000 to 3000+ by signing exciting players and by offering entertaining and successful football.
Beyond that, the 'customer experience' of attending a match at the Hive should be important. A visitor (especially a first-timer) needs to be able to get a drink or some food without queuing for a long time, and without bumping into a wedding party; decent toilets; a well-stocked club shop; the information provided (I won't mention the scoreboard - Oops, I did; the tannoy). What if anything is done to encourage a 'first timer' to return? I know technology has moved on (from printed programmes etc) - but perhaps when a ticket is sold online to a first-timer they could also be sent a voucher to 'Come again'? Perhaps they could also be offered information about the supporters association?
COYB!

[Mem Beespod]

IMO reducing the on the day £23 price isn’t going to increase our attendances drastically just to suit some adhoc mates who we might bring occasionally.

The strategy of the club has been a bit finger in the wind. Dan Martin’s school strategy has born fruit but for me the low hanging fruit is the lapsed or apathetic fans. The ones who will come to the big games but won’t come out on a rainy day or would like to come more regularly but struggle to justify £23.

Personally I agree with ex BFCSA committee member Sam Collins who has been very vocal about the loss of membership discounts which has impacted his attendance as well as bringing his children. This has impacted those supporters that don’t come often enough for a season ticket but enough that £23 a game is an expense they can only justify every so often.

We’ve gone to a cashless site so all supporters that have bought tickets, whether it’s one ticket or a season ticket holder, will be in the database. Why not invest in some market researchers to contact all fans that attend say 1-10 matches a season and find out why they don’t come to more? There will be hundreds in there. The answers of that should shape our approach.

Instead the club is just making guesses and we are just speculating based on anecdotes.

[b4life]

Thanks for your responses and to follow up on a few. Regarding atmosphere. WhetstoneBee and The beekeeper mentions 'The Non-league experience', you mean like crappy bogs, no running water and terrible sight lines? I'd take the Hive everytime! What probably makes Bromley's atmosphere better is the higher crowds, although the lack of a terrace or anything behind the goal must be a factor at the moment? Does anyone else buy into this 'Non league atmosphere, or do you prefer the better facilities of the Hive?
As for the methodology about the crowds. Just take the 2003/4 season at Underhill. We finished 4th and lost in the playoffs. We had an average of 1633 home supporters. Last season, similar result, we had an average of 1583 home supporters. That's a difference of 50. a marginal difference of 3%, so have we really lost ANY supporters overall or does it just feel like it we have at the Hive?
Re the Shuttle bus. It was scrapped because it made a loss but we do need more links with Barnet. I think there may be a time and place for it to come back though, much easier if we were in the league.
I do agree with the lower cost entry point and some proper marketing.

[EastBarnetFan]

Absolutely not a myth that 'on the day prices' are too much. It's something I've experienced firsthand (with ex-bees that went to Underhill) and is generally a shared view amongst Hive regulars. It's a real barrier and probably costs us - in my estimation - 100-200 casual attendees a game.

To charge £22 for the Legends is understandable if there is a cheaper £17 terrace, but there isn't.

The other elephant in the room is that we're not in Barnet. That's it. Speaks for itself.

[beew]

We lost fans when we moved to the Hive, I'd estimate 200-300, who refused to move with the club, and you have to respect their decision.

Many of these fans will do the away games, and that probably explains why we get 1000 at Borehamwood and 400 at Dagenham.

During our last season at Underhill it cost £17 to stand on the east terrace, so in real terns a 30% jump to the £22 it costs now at the Hive. Some would say this is reasonable over the 10 year period that we've played in Harrow.

However we need to build our fanbase to make up for the loss of supporters during that move.

The club needs to offer an incentive to encourage people into the ground, on a long term basis, and the only way I see that this will happen is if they become creative to offer promotions to reduce the match day ticket price.

The 5 game carnet style ticket has apparently been rejected before by the club, so maybe the membership package, that we had a year or so back needs to be reintroduced, to give 20% off match day ticket prices.
.
If DB succeeds in getting us promoted this year there will be a natural increase, as exciting winning football brings in the crowds, and when happens I'd like to think the club would adopt the Bradford approach of cheap season tickets, to fill the ground.

[Lord Bee]

The 6 things they could do are

1) bring back the £2 per month Hive membership that gave 10% off ticket prices and food etc. make it £3 if they must. This creates a connection for those that can’t commit to a season ticket

2) bring in a 10 game carnet ticket for people that can’t commit to a season ticket. Price point from £180 to £200.

3) bring back a simplified version of the Barnet shuttle bus. Bus arriving say an hour before the game and leaving 15 minutes after. The previous one with multiple times was too complicated. Even if it’s loss making they should do it as the Barnet connection is important.

4) email existing database with some sort of offer bogof or 3 for 2 or something like that.

5) do the leafleting of offers better. The £10 family ticket offer passed most people by. Admittedly a mass leafleting of the local area may not attract many but it may attract a few.

6) do more cross selling to people who use the Hive for other events. If there is a wedding give everyone who attends a voucher for a free ticket, similarly for people that hire the pitches or even go for a medical. Again it may not work but what does it matter if it doesn’t.

[thebeekeeper]

Thanks for your responses and to follow up on a few. Regarding atmosphere. WhetstoneBee and The beekeeper mentions 'The Non-league experience', you mean like crappy bogs, no running water and terrible sight lines? I'd take the Hive everytime! What probably makes Bromley's atmosphere better is the higher crowds, although the lack of a terrace or anything behind the goal must be a factor at the moment? Does anyone else buy into this 'Non league atmosphere, or do you prefer the better facilities of the Hive?
As for the methodology about the crowds. Just take the 2003/4 season at Underhill. We finished 4th and lost in the playoffs. We had an average of 1633 home supporters. Last season, similar result, we had an average of 1583 home supporters. That's a difference of 50. a marginal difference of 3%, so have we really lost ANY supporters overall or does it just feel like it we have at the Hive?
Re the Shuttle bus. It was scrapped because it made a loss but we do need more links with Barnet. I think there may be a time and place for it to come back though, much easier if we were in the league.
I do agree with the lower cost entry point and some proper marketing.

I suppose it's not an exact science and depends on the seasons you pick - but I think the 03/04 example may be the exception, rather than rule.

You could argue that we were 548 down on our 04/05 attendance when we won the National League in 14/15. Similarly, our first season back in L2 in 15/16 was 429 down on 05/06. The most recent relegation campaign in 17/18 was also 416 lower than 12/13.

Even if that drop off isn't consistent across every single comparable campaign, they're big numbers regardless.

Regarding the 'non-league experience'; I think it's a question of what you want to be. If you're aiming to be upwardly mobile and growing attendances then The Hive is fine – it's the kind of stadium required to really move forward as a club. But you have to back that up with progress, on and off the pitch. Shrewsbury are a good eg of this – they moved to an out of town ground but that move coincided with them climbing to League One, so crowds grew and you suddenly have an atmosphere befitting the stadium you've moved to.

If you don't do that, what on earth is the appeal to a potential new fan? It's just 1-2k of people rattling around a somewhat cavernous ground, with relatively little atmosphere, moderately high ticket prices and a National League football team. I hate to say this, but I'm not sure there are many selling points, in terms of why you should support Barnet over another London team (besides the football on the pitch). You can get adult tickets to Charlton for £24, QPR for £21 and Leyton Orient for £22 – all with fuller stadiums and better atmospheres.

Then there's the opposite end of the scale – the traditional 'non-league experience' that will appeal to a different kind of person. There are plenty of people out there who love the 'old school', community feel of lower league football - terraces (even if the facilities are basic), cheaper tickets, maybe a more localised experience (craft beer, food stalls etc). We know that's appealing, because some clubs how really grown their crowds with this approach – Dulwich Hamlet, Lewes, even a number of more generic National League teams.

My worry is that Barnet don't really hit the mark whatever you're after at the moment. Whereas at Underhill there was an appealing lower league vibe to the place. Hopefully that makes some sense!

[EastBarnetFan]

God knows what email CRM they are using but they're certainly not using it effectively. I receive emails from basically every club I've signed up to from when I bought tickets online in the past.


1a) Email users who have a booking history but have not yet bought a ticket for an upcoming bees fixture 7 days in advance. They'll now be aware of the game. Include a copy about who's our opposition, a special message from Deano, the previous matchday highlight link (Youtube), the table, matchday details, and a link to buy tickets. This should happen before every home game as standard. Here you can also slip in potential matchday ticket offers.

1b) Roughly same as above but for all Hive members who have never watched a Barnet game before. Again, this should be a relatively large list of The Hive London users who know the site. Copy should be adapted for a different audience of primarily non-bees fan.

2) For those that did attend the game, a segmented email thanking them for their support, a message from Deano, matchday highlights from Youtube, section on next 2 home games, including a ticket link if available.

[WhetstoneBee]

TRegarding atmosphere. WhetstoneBee and The beekeeper mentions 'The Non-league experience', you mean like crappy bogs, no running water and terrible sight lines? I'd take the Hive everytime!

No - I meant a ground that isn't two-thirds empty, that actually has a bit of an atmosphere, where's there's a community feel, an option to stand for those who want it, where it doesn't take 20 minutes to get yourselves or your kids something hot to eat, where there's fun entertainment at half-time etc. etc. There are plenty of Premier League and EFL grounds that offer no atmosphere in soulless identikit all-seater stadiums - people are attracted to non-league because it offers something different, something more friendly and fun. Underhill did that and many NL clubs still do. We are one of the few that doesn't and seemingly doesn't even try to.

Despite what you seem to think, people don't come/not come to football games because of the quality of the toilets. If you asked what matters to supporters, that wouldn't even be in the top ten. What matters is the feel of the place, the experience on offer and the quality of the football. Underhill had many flaws but when I took people there (or more recently to away games at places like Bromley, Aldershot and Dagenham), they loved the experience and the atmosphere and couldn't wait to come back. When I take them to the Hive, they often comment on how empty/quiet/dysfunctional it is and it's difficult to convince them to come again.

You might not agree with the answers people are giving to your question but it's a bit pointless to ask what it stopping people coming to games and then when people give reasons, dismiss them or tell them they're wrong. It's fine if you think the The Hive is a wonderful place to watch football but it is a fact that many, many others don't, and until it improves our attendances will flatline while other clubs all around us succeed in attracting many hundreds of new fans.

[11bee717]

£22 is not extortionately expensive anymore, whether people like it or not.

[Tuesds]

…As for the methodology about the crowds. Just take the 2003/4 season at Underhill. We finished 4th and lost in the playoffs. We had an average of 1633 home supporters. Last season, similar result, we had an average of 1583 home supporters. That's a difference of 50. a marginal difference of 3%, so have we really lost ANY supporters overall or does it just feel like it we have at the Hive?

As indicated by your own figure showing that comparable average crowds placed us 6th out of 24 in 14/15 and then 17th out of 24 last season, the context is that many more people are watching lower league and non league football overall. We’re either failing to benefit from that at all or that trend is averting a slide in attendances that would otherwise be happening. Either way, we need to emulate those clubs whose average crowds have increased considerably and continue to rise.

There have been a number of good ideas mentioned. In terms of ticket pricing, I agree with the point that £22 for Legends would be more than acceptable alongside the choice of even one other option of a lower price point for a part of the ground with a lesser view/less cover like the East Stand.

The case I would make to the club about opening another area with a lower ticket price is that our own experience as a club shows that it would not cost us very much in terms of lost gate receipts from fans who would otherwise pay more in the Legends Stand.

The North Terrace at Underhill and The South Terrace at The Hive enabled us to market a cheap one-off price to introduce people to Barnet FC and are where many of us started out, while the much greater numbers in the East/South/West at Underhill and Legends at The Hive show that regular fans will and do pay more for a better view, facilities etc.

Obviously you have to employ stewards, run tea bars etc. for every additional area you open, but there’s a cost to not having a lower entry price point and a choice of accommodation which is less immediately apparent but which exists nonetheless.

Comparisons with Dagenham have been mentioned. One point not mentioned yet is that Dagenham have a family area providing covered seating where ticket prices are £17 for adults and free for under-10s. Re-opening the old Mr Bumble’s Zone (southern half of East Stand) or at the least just adjusting the prices for the current northern bit of the East Stand and promoting free/low-cost tickets to under 10/12s etc. might help get those all-important families in, as well as potentially providing a much-needed lower-cost alternative to the Legends Stand.

Lastly, I’d personally love to see a return of a membership scheme. I’m not sure it would make a big difference to attendances, but it helps keep people in the club’s orbit. As someone who lives a way away and has to pick and choose matches, I know that when I was paying a monthly membership I felt more connected to the club and went to even greater efforts to try to get to games and use the discount I was paying for, both via match tickets and merchandise, food etc.

[beew]

£22 is not extortionately expensive anymore, whether people like it or not.

It's not for an away supporter, but for your bread and butter 10-15 game home supporters it is. Most clubs of our size in the National league offer a cheaper option for their supporters, so for us it's a season ticket at £16 a game or £22 pay on the day. Needs to be something in the middle.