What do you want from a manager?

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What do you want from a manager?

Postby Peter Piper » 17 Apr 2011, 11:28

What's is the bottom line of what you should expect from your manager?

The recent mayhem surrounding Martin Allen has seen huge ongoing criticism of a man who's evident selfishness has meant his stay was brief to say the least.

However consider the reality:

Stimson
Played 22, Points 19, Points per game 0.86.

Fairclough
Played 16, Points 15, Points per game 0.93.

Allen
Played 3, Points 7, Points per game 2.33.

* For info Burton and Northampton are averaging a little over 1 point per game.


As you can see both Stimson and Fairclough had a fair crack of the whip, and both stayed the distance, however both were on course for relegation, whereas under Allen we picked up more consecutive points than at any other period during the season.

Why, therefore, are fans obsessed with Allen's poor behaviour, but apparently so accepting of the ongoing poor value provided both by Stimson and Fairclough, not to mention the errors made by the person responsible for both those appointments and the allocation of the budget? :unkw:

This 'righteous' anger at Allen has extended to a number of people asserting that 'PF would probably have got the same results anyway' despite a complete lack of corroborating evidence for this view, and yet it's patently clear that if we do go down this season it won't be Allen's contribution that will have caused it.

If as a fan your main concern is the 'niceness' or 'loyalty' of your manager, or indeed your players, then the league table is probably somewhat of an irrelevance for you in any event, but if your priority is creating the best possible team you may have to accept the fact that the best man for the job isn't always the one you'd choose as your best mate. :mellow:
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby djhdjh » 17 Apr 2011, 13:46

Where is this idea that fans accepted Stimson or Fairclough as manager coming from other than your own dislike of them? Stimson's appointment was greeted lukewarmly at best and calls for him to go came rapidly. No one really wanted Fairclough in charge for more than a short term as caretaker (in which he steadied the ship before failing to kick on). If you hold more anger for a lack of ability than a lack of decency I suggest that is most unfair. Allen deserves all the criticism he gets for being selfish and disloyal and I don't know why you want to defend him from that. Out of anger a few have made daft comments about his impact. For some reason (actually mainly your dislike of other managers) you've decided to blow those comments out of proportion. I think everyone is aware that being nice and good don't go together, although Allen has never completed any triumph for this club and nice guy Fairclough did once so let's not be making general rules based on a 3 game stint.
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby johnp » 17 Apr 2011, 14:26

I want loyalty, passion and believe in a manager, if he has all these then the players will have the same and play well.
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby becbee » 17 Apr 2011, 15:26

Integrity, football nous, man management skills. A willingmess to listen to others, learn from his mistakes and to have a Plan B.
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby Peter Piper » 17 Apr 2011, 18:52

djhdjh wrote:Where is this idea that fans accepted Stimson or Fairclough as manager coming from other than your own dislike of them?


Ouch. I don't dislike them, I just don't feel they were up to the most important job at our football club, in what is becoming an increasingly competitive league.

There is a tendency in Barnet fans to feel that we're permanently 'punching above our weight' in the football league, which leads to an almost saint-like patience with struggling managers/players that while intending to encourage improvement, can often string out failure for far longer that should be allowed.

I also 'hold no anger' for Stimson or PF, nor do I 'hold love' for Allen :P , the 'poor behaviour' and 'evident selfishness' references to Allen were a clue there. Allen deserves criticism for his attitude yes, but that shouldn't deflect from the fact that his immediate, albeit brief, influence as a football manager, showed up PF's longer period of 'steadying the ship' for what it was, a move from relegation form, to slightly better relegation form. :Pardon:

On a more positive note the Sanchez move cannot do any harm! :gd:
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby Hiveoccupier » 17 Apr 2011, 22:49

Saint lie patience ! The first Stimson out posts were made in pre-season and PF's caretaker appointment was doubted by some from the start. We are now on the 4th manager of a single season - hardly a model that many of us wants to see going forward. Some of the most succesful managers there have ever been (including Feruson and Wenger) would have survived the model you are promoting.
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby Dave H » 18 Apr 2011, 08:02

"What do you want from a manager ?"

A minimum of 50 points a season. Back to back wins more than once every two years and a reason to go to games.

Having said that, they won't achieve the above by jumping ship as soon as someone offers them a few quid more.
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby John_Carp1 » 18 Apr 2011, 14:22

Peter Piper wrote:*This 'righteous' anger at Allen has extended to a number of people asserting that 'PF would probably have got the same results anyway' despite a complete lack of corroborating evidence for this view, and yet it's patently clear that if we do go down this season it won't be Allen's contribution that will have caused it.


Actually that wasn't what was being argued. The assertion made by Allen (and many others) was that we were 7 points better off than we would have been without him. This assumes that we would have automatically lost at home to Chesterfield, away to Burton, and home to Crewe. The 'evidence' against this is the points average for PF you pointed out above. It would have to be 0 to be a 'complete lack of corroborating evidence'.

Allen's contribution is also that he left, meaning we had to employ someone else. So if we have a demise over the final five games, his initial appointment 8 games before the end has to be added to the 'blame' for the final five games points total in some way.

Your sample of 3 games for a points average is frankly laughable. By your logic he isn't the man for Notts County, where he has a 0 points per game average from 2 games, far lower compared to their other managers.
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby jamiefrbees » 18 Apr 2011, 14:26

I think the point here, Mr Piper, is that you don't vent anger towards someone for not being good enough.

Someone trying their best and failing, a la Stimson and Fairclough is not worthy of anger or hatred.

The anger and hatred is reserved for Allen because he has let us down on one of the traits that a football manager CAN control, their morality, loyalty and integrity.

Martin Allen has built everyone up, and let everyone down.
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby Peter Piper » 18 Apr 2011, 21:42

John_Carp1 wrote:Actually that wasn't what was being argued.


Actually it was, on this very board. I can't comment on Allen's statement as I haven't seen it.

John_Carp1 wrote: The 'evidence' against this is the points average for PF you pointed out above. It would have to be 0 to be a 'complete lack of corroborating evidence'.


I withdraw the word 'complete'. :)


John_Carp1 wrote:
Allen's contribution is also that he left, meaning we had to employ someone else. So if we have a demise over the final five games, his initial appointment 8 games before the end has to be added to the 'blame' for the final five games points total in some way.


Whilst that's a little insulting to Graz, I'll go along with that as a proposal if you agree any points we pick up between now and the end of the season are legacy points from all Allen's recent efforts.... :laugh:

John_Carp1 wrote:
Your sample of 3 games for a points average is frankly laughable. By your logic he isn't the man for Notts County, where he has a 0 points per game average from 2 games, far lower compared to their other managers.


I think the key point from all this is 'effectiveness'. The averages merely serve to highlight how effective Allen was in galvanising a team that was drifting into the Conference, when other managers had clearly failed to 'jump-start' the Barnet engine despite having far more games to play with.

Hiveoccupier wrote: We are now on the 4th manager of a single season - hardly a model that many of us wants to see going forward. Some of the most succesful managers there have ever been (including Feruson and Wenger) would have survived the model you are promoting.


I'm certainly wasn't promoting the idea of a culling of managers after every 3 games! But rather stressing the importance of getting the right man for the job, which can change with circumstance. A good manager energises the players and obviously to keep that going gets harder and harder the longer they're in charge - but that's the skill of the great managers. Some managers seem to have little, if any, positive effect on players, and some seem to lose their mojo after a while. Players sense this and sticking with the same people in those circumstances becomes pointless, if you'll excuse the pun. :roll:

jamiefrbees wrote:I think the point here, Mr Piper, is that you don't vent anger towards someone for not being good enough.




I Agree.

jamiefrbees wrote:Someone trying their best and failing, a la Stimson and Fairclough is not worthy of anger or hatred.


I Agree.

jamiefrbees wrote:The anger and hatred is reserved for Allen because he has let us down on one of the traits that a football manager CAN control, their morality, loyalty and integrity. Martin Allen has built everyone up, and let everyone down.


Morals change, and loyalty and integrity are pretty hard to locate anywhere nowadays, least of all in a business where careers are short and money shouts. Martin Allen came to do a job for money, and left when someone offered him more, which makes him neither a nice man nor an unusual one.

Our real concern should not be Martin Allen's standards, that's a discussion he'll have with St Peter, or the Fraud squad, but with the standards on the pitch at Underhill. I'll shut up now. :Drink1:
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby Hiveoccupier » 18 Apr 2011, 22:23

For me the best managers come in, take stock of what they have got to work with ,do their best with it in the short term and then set about an orderly restructuring with the aim of taking the whole club to a higher plain.

Managers like Allen aren't worth a candle, they are short term self centered types interested in their own self promotion. Managers like Ferguson, Wenger and Fairclough are worth their weight in gold.

How can I include Fairclough in this category ? If you loook through how he approached the job when he took it on, how he has responded to our managerial crises (the collapse in performance under Hendo, the Stimson debacle, and his own recognition that he wasnt getting the club where it needed to be in the short term this season), and where he has positionned himself now - at the academy - what you see is:

A man who is massively loyal, has huge personal integrity and above all appears to believe in and be prepared to make the personal investment in a long term vision for the club's success. He does this, and carries on doing this, despite haven taken massive amounts of shit from some of our supporters who have inherited the British disease of wanting temporary results now at the expense of better results in the future.

Off the back of his track record of getting us promoted, keeping us in the league and achieving our best ever cup runs he could have walked away to a better paid job many moons ago. But he isn't a Martin Allen type he has integrity and he has a vision that extends beyond personal agrandisement and short term materialism.

The manager I would like to see at the club is someone who has all of Paul's traits with the league experience to go with them - someone who believes in Barnet FC as a worthwhile long term project and is prepared to stick it out to see the potential, that TK and PF have been setting the foundations for over many years, delivered.

The reasons why Ferguson is the most successful manager ever in British Football and Wenger will eventually be seen as the World's best club manager ever is that they have a wholistic approach to building a club that is capable of meeting their ambitions for success (not their personal wealth) and have been given the time and support to do it. They aren't judged by their employers on a third of a season's games worth of results they are judged on how they are taking forward the long term vision.
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Re: What do you want from a manager?

Postby Statto » 19 Apr 2011, 08:08

You want someone with the best coaching skills you can get for the money you can afford (UEFA B or Pro Licence), regardless of who they are and which clubs they have been at before.

You also want a manager who has a) contacts to get good quality players and loanees in, and b) charisma, that will generate interest and publicity at the club to keep them in the publc eye.

Then you want them to be able to work together.
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